Marius Cazan, Elie Wiesel: "We have anti-Semitism without Jews in Romania"

Reporter: The last report prepared for our country by the Anti-Defamation League in 2015 establishes that 47% of the Romanian population is anti-Semitic, after in 2014 the anti-Semitism index was 35%. Since then and until now, no report has been carried out by ADL Global on Romania. Instead, I followed the reports from the region and all of them show increases of plus or minus 2-3%. Including Hungary, where the anti-Semitism index varied between 37% and 42% in the period 2015-2023. Taking into account that 10 years have passed since the last index established by the ADL for our country, how high do you estimate the level of anti-Semitism in Romanian society today?

Marius Cazan: I would not dare to make an estimate now. This index measured by ADL Global is obviously applied in several countries. They decide, I don't know by what criteria, which they apply in various societies. In many of these surveys, some of this research is obviously applied in countries where there are larger Jewish communities. This is also one of the reasons, I think, why the ADL Global index has not been calculated for Romania since 2015, because the Jewish community in Romania is quite small.

Reporter: How do you explain the fact that, although we have a fairly small Jewish community, we have a fairly high degree of anti-Semitism in our country?

Marius Cazan: Because it is this already established expression, that anti-Semitism can happen even without Jews. So it is not a rule that the presence of the Jewish community or the presence of Jews is the only moment in which anti-Semitic manifestations appear. So we have anti-Semitism without Jews in Romania. Yes, this can happen.

Reporter: Can this anti-Semitism be justified only by the fact that sovereignist, nationalist movements accuse Jews of being behind globalist politics?

Marius Cazan: That's a theme, it's one of the themes. We somehow have, in the recent history of our country, of our society, a significant Jewish presence in the 20th century. Approximately 4% in the first half of the 20th century of the Romanian population, in the interwar period, belonged to this community, to this identity, in fact, and it's a long story. I don't know if now is the time to deconstruct it and talk in detail about how we get from 800,000 Jews in the 1930s to just over 3,000 people today. But, somehow returning to your question, yes, in Romania there are anti-Semitic manifestations, which have somehow intensified in recent years. Again, it is a very clear finding, although I cannot present you with statistical figures, but I can tell you that at the level of the analyses that we have been doing since 2015, perhaps more applied since 2020, there is an increase in anti-Semitic manifestations and there is an intensification of the manner in which these manifestations occur, a type of radicalization of the messages of these manifestations. If 5-6 years ago the messages were more veiled, more camouflaged, they were not so obvious, there were no references that instigated various actions against the Jewish community or against individuals who are either Jews or perceived as Jews, today, this type of manifestations are often encountered in the public space, especially in the online environment.

• Anti-Semites - present in all sectors of activity in Romania

Reporter: What is the cause of the radicalization of these messages?

Marius Cazan: Obviously, the causes are multiple. We are talking about causes related to - I wouldn't call it a way - but to a certain illiberal current, which has somehow spread throughout the world since 2014-2015, which also somehow affects the type of anti-Semitic messages spread throughout the world. Remember this campaign that started, I think around 2014, and which spread throughout Eastern Europe. It also had various manifestations in the United States, so there is nothing specific to a certain geographical, geopolitical area, so to speak. That is one of the explanations. On the other hand, I would go a little closer of our days and I would also introduce into our discussion the accession to Parliament of some extremist parties that happened in the legislature that just ended, at the end of last year, so from 2020 onwards.

Reporter: Let's stop here. The accession of these extremist parties. In 2015 we had an anti-Semitism index in Romania of 47%, found by the other global evils. In 2024, in the Romanian Parliament we have 34% extremist parties. Can we say that the 47% index has decreased or increased, since in 2015 we did not have these parties, and in 2024 we have 34%?

Marius Cazan: We should see what a sociological analysis like the one done in 2015 looks like, so that we can say whether that anti-Semitism index has increased or not. It is clear, in my opinion, that the type of message, of encouragement, that the extremist parties, through an obviously camouflaged, veiled, nuanced discourse, have had in the last four years, have empowered those segments of society that were hesitant to manifest themselves, when it comes to their values and feelings and their feelings towards the Jewish community.

Reporter: From your point of view, are these people found in all sectors of activity in Romania?

Marius Cazan: After all, that is it. I intuit that yes.

Reporter: Then how can we explain the fact that the state authorities have not acted properly since 2020 to stop these anti-Semitic manifestations?

Marius Cazan: The state authorities pass over or put an end to the series of problems the manifestations of an anti-Semitic nature that are brought to their analysis and management, so to speak. We have legislation in Romania that has been in place since 2002 and was amended and updated in 2015, and neither the 2002 nor the 2015 legislation is being applied.

• "I think we need more goodwill, more training from prosecutors"

Reporter: Because you talked about this legislation that has not been applied since 2002 and 2015. The Prosecutor General of Romania, Alex Florenţa, declared last December that this legislation must be amended because it cannot be applied exactly to the concrete cases that exist at the moment. What is your point of view on this declaration?

Marius Cazan: I believe that the law, as it is in its current form, can be applied. My experience in reading, in analyzing the solutions for filing or rejecting complaints that prosecutors have had in the case of notifications made by the Institute, shows that either there is a type of ignorance of the character, of the historical component of this memorial legislation, or there is a type of lack of serious analysis that a prosecutor could do when brought before such a file.

Reporter: And then what should be done?

Marius Cazan: I think we need more goodwill, more preparation from the prosecutors. We need some signals that until now, the leadership of the Prosecutor General's Office has not had to the prosecutors.

Reporter: Nevertheless, we have two strategies against anti-Semitism: the first in the period 2020-2023, and the second was approved last year in May for the period 2024-2027. From what you say, we understand that we made a new strategy, after we were not able to implement even the first one. Because only in this way can the fact that the prosecutors did not send to court the files initiated following the notifications received from the Elie Wiesel Institute be explained.

Marius Cazan: Well, it's not just about the Elie Wiesel Institute. It's about notifications made based on the respective legislation. I would say that a national strategy in a specific field has some objectives that must be implemented and carried out by institutions, respectively by people who are aware of the responsibilities they have within those institutions. But to speak more concretely, because I know the situation of these two strategies, I can tell you that the strategy that has just ended, in fact in 2023, did not have an objective, a milestone in analyzing the manner in which the legislation or Ordinance 31/2002 is applied, unlike this strategy, which was approved in 2024, which indeed has among its objectives the analysis and possible amendment, updating of the legislation, if necessary.

Reporter: Does the new strategy also have the necessary mechanisms to be implemented?

Marius Cazan: They are within this set of government institutions that are part of the National Strategy for Combating Antisemitism, institutions that have the prerogatives to modify, to propose amendments to the legislation. The Ministry of Justice, for example, is such an institution and is part of the team of institutions, of the working group that works within the strategy for the analysis, before proposing possible amendments to the legislation. So, nevertheless, this strategy was assumed by the Government last year, in May. We will expect some results during this year.

• Files in the works, not finalized by the prosecutors

Reporter: Until we have those results, we note what happened in Romania, where we had a candidate in the presidential elections, whose criminal file was closed by the Prosecutor's Office in which he was accused of violating the legislation on combating anti-Semitism. What do we do?

Marius Cazan: That's a very good question. What should we start doing now, what haven't we done, we're talking like this, as a state, as a society, for 20 or so years now: namely, to enforce the law. This must be done when necessary and not to make hei-rups that are meant to temper certain excesses. No image exercises in sensitive moments that, obviously, they arise. We must react when various slippages occur. That's the component that the Elie Wiesel Institute deals with: react when slippages occur. We don't want to be the only ones doing this. And, from time to time, when we are aware of manifestations, whether they are anti-Semitic, or Holocaust denial, or incitement to hatred against people based on ethnic identity, religious identity, and so on, we end up filing complaints with the authorities.

Reporter: Regarding the complaints, do you know what happened to the file opened by the Prosecutor General's Office of Diana Şoşoacă, after the presidential elections were canceled and she protested at the Constitutional Court, a protest in which she made several anti-Semitic and pro-Legislative statements? Do you have any information about this file? I ask because the Elie Wiesel Institute, as a public institution, must have institutional relations with the Prosecutor General's Office.

Marius Cazan: I can tell you that I know nothing about this file, nor what the stage of the investigation is; I have no idea what procedures are being carried out. We have several complaints filed either against Diana Şoşoacă's party or against Diana Şoşoacă herself, since the beginning of last year, and I know that work is being done on those files.

Reporter: In what sense is work being done?

Marius Cazan: Very good question. They are being given to certain prosecutors for the case.

Reporter: Who have summoned you, have they summoned the representatives of the Elie Wiesel Institute so far?

Marius Cazan: No. We know that work is being done; that is about all the information received from the Prosecutor's Office regarding those files is limited to. The stage of the investigation is limited, if I may say so. And it is not the only case.

• Marius Cazan: Radical anti-Semitism, under 10%

Reporter: Under these conditions, should we be surprised that the number of anti-Semitic manifestations has increased? By how much has it increased? You said that since 2020 you have noticed an increase in the number of anti-Semitic manifestations. Do you have a percentage or can you tell us how many times it has increased?

Marius Cazan: We do not do quantitative analyses. The observation regarding the intensification of these manifestations is obvious. Please look at these reports that we publish annually, somewhere in the summer, and the analysis segment is a calendar year, generally April, May, the following year, you will see there that there are anti-Semitic manifestations. I repeat, the vast majority are in the online environment, where, more recently, citizens express themselves as intensely as possible. If you want me to give you some information about perceptions, namely, I repeat, manifestations are one thing - that is, the way in which individuals behave and manifest themselves, and perceptions are another. Here we have some sociological analyses. Also, every 2 years we do some relevant sociological research at the national level regarding the perception that Romanian society has of minorities and in which Jews also exist there. I would say that the trend is of slight growth, but without radicalization.

Reporter: At what level is this trend located?

Marius Cazan: I think it's a tough segment within society.

Reporter: How much does it represent? 25-30%?

Marius Cazan: No. Again, we're talking about perceptions, we're talking about specific moments. This tough segment isn't in double-digit percentages.

• Soft anti-Semitic manifestations, in all layers of society

Reporter: Regarding perceptions, in reporting towards the mosaic community, do we have the same percentage of 47% from the ADL Global index in 2015 or is it lower or higher?

Marius Cazan: If we look at various questions, a question resembles... Again, the index is made according to one methodology, the research is made according to another methodology. But, if we look at certain questions that show, for example, the social distance towards individuals belonging to the Jewish identity, there we can identify a kind of rejection of the social relationships that Romanian society, in fact, the respondents have.

Reporter: What is the level?

Marius Cazan: The current percentage is somewhere similar to the one identified in 2015 by ADL Global.

Reporter: You mean somewhere around 50%?

Marius Cazan: Less, between 40 and 50%.

Reporter: Isn't it around 60%?

Marius Cazan: No.

Reporter: Are you afraid to say that this percentage is approaching 60%?

Marius Cazan: No. It's not. Especially since it's an extraction that I do from one of questions from many other conditions. The choice I make following a question from many others.

Reporter: Can it be said, under these conditions, that not 50%, but 40% of Romanian society is anti-Semitic?

Marius Cazan: I wouldn't say that it is anti-Semitic. I would say that the perception that members of Romanian society have towards Jewish minorities is one -. I try to use a term that is somewhat more neutral; because we are not talking about manifestations, a type of radicalization of these respondents, but a perception.

Reporter: Can this perception lead to the non-application of the law by prosecutors who process the files regarding the notifications sent by the Elie Wiesel Institute? I guess you will say that it is an assumption, but can we think about something like that?

Marius Cazan: It is a speculation that is worth analyzing, so to speak; of course.

Reporter: Considering that the percentage of anti-Semitic perception is quite high in Romanian society, that it is found in all social strata, based on this logic we can make an assumption that this type of soft anti-Semitic manifestation - as you describe it - can also be found among the magistrates who deal with the respective files.

Marius Cazan: Now, we all have prejudices and stereotypes. How trained certain professional categories are to overcome these prejudices and stereotypes when it comes to a minority, I cannot tell you.

• Superficial relationship between INM and the Elie Wiesel Institute

Reporter: Following your analysis of the files and what has happened in recent years with the files and notifications regarding the application of the law to combat anti-Semitism, have you discussed with those at INM (National Institute of Magistracy) to change the structure a bit, to introduce a training course for future magistrates? Or are you considering something like that?

Marius Cazan: In our opinion, these courses should be thought out and introduced at the level of law schools and education, of professional training in the first part of the career. I think that the collaboration we have with the INM is much too superficial. And I'll tell you specifically, once a year, the INM asks us to do a training course with magistrates who are generally judges or auxiliary staff in tribunals and courts. This course takes place online, there is not much interest. We are talking about a two-day course, that is, eight hours.

Reporter: What is the purpose of this course?

Marius Cazan: It has no purpose, that is, there is no test from which to show the knowledge retained or assimilated by the participants.

Reporter: And under these conditions, should we be surprised by the resolutions of the Prosecutor General's Office and other prosecutors' offices regarding the application of the law to combat anti-Semitism?

Marius Cazan: Let's keep things separate. We are talking about some courses that we do with magistrates, mainly judges.

Reporter: You say that there is legislation that is not applied. We want to understand why it is not applied, because, from our point of view, as journalists, due to the non-application of this law, it came to the point that on November 24 we had a presidential candidate who finished first in the first round. A man who has expressed his anti-Semitism so many times. Marius Cazan: It is true, but this category of magistrates has two major components. On the one hand, we are talking about magistrates who are judges and, on the other hand, we are talking about those who have the status of magistrates, but work in prosecutors' offices, they are prosecutors. We do not have training courses, we do not know what the level of training and interest of prosecutors is. This is what we are talking about. This course, I repeat, is superficial, it is insufficient, it is done. I think last year, in December, I attended the third such exercise, which until now, we don't know what kind of solutions the judges could offer because the files don't reach the judges. They stop at the Prosecutor's Offices.

Reporter: Who makes the curriculum for this course?

Marius Cazan: This curriculum is proposed by the INM and we offer contributions of a historical nature and that's where our contribution stops. I don't think it's enough, from my point of view. On the other hand, we can't evaluate this lack of activity on the part of the judges; since they don't have files that have reached the court, we don't know what solutions they could offer.

• Non-application of legislation contributes to the increase in anti-Semitic manifestations

Reporter: Can we say that what happened on November 24, with the entry into the second round of a certain person who had anti-Semitic opinions and has anti-Semitic opinions, is also the result of the inaction of the authorities in our country regarding the application of the law on combating anti-Semitism?

Marius Cazan: What is not applied... Basically, it is a very strong signal that the authorities are giving to society that it is not an area that will have repercussions on those who would be active, would act in that direction. Basically, the fact that the legislation is not applied contributes to the normalization of the type of demonstrations, whether it is anti-Semitic, apologizing for war criminals or other people.

Reporter: Do you consider the vote for this candidate a vote given by anti-Semites or also by anti-Semites?

Marius Cazan: I think that the range of voters for Călin Georgescu is much larger than this radical extremist segment of Romanian society.

Reporter: You said that the radical extremist is below 10%.

Marius Cazan: In my opinion, yes, it is single digits. Yes, but this, I repeat, we are talking about various contexts, because we do not know how the manifestations evolve through the prism of certain political forces.

Reporter: Extrapolating, we can say, based on the typology of the vote, that the radicals of almost 10%, through the small family composed of 3 or 4 or 5 people with the right to vote, currently reach the anti-Semitism index of 47% established by ADL Global in 2015 for our country.

Marius Cazan: I have no idea if that's the case. I'm not contradicting you, but I think it's possible. It's possible, but I think some sociologists and science specialists should answer this type of answer and analysis.

Reporter: Do you consider it necessary at this moment to conduct a survey, a study, a broad research on the index of anti-Semitism in Romania? Especially in the current conditions, with the war in Ukraine, with Putin's statements regarding Jews, with what's happening here, with what's happening in Hungary. Do you consider that a broad study on anti-Semitism in Romania would be needed?

Marius Cazan: I think that we need sociological studies all the time, so to speak, and on certain issues. This seems like it could be a relatively urgent issue. Obviously, such studies are welcome.

Reporter: One last question. How do you explain the fact that people who have not entered into a direct relationship with a Jew in their lives are anti-Semitic?

Marius Cazan: As I said earlier, there are people... We all have stereotypes and prejudices. They are probably more acute and easier to cultivate where education is low. In my opinion, I believe that education based on civic and democratic foundations is one of the long-term solutions. For acute, urgent problems, we must also apply legislation, but for the democratic health of our society, we must invest and think of programs based on education, especially for students, but also a type of civic education that could be addressed to adults.

Reporter: Thank you.